crankyoldman (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
crankyoldman) wrote2008-04-15 03:52 pm
crankyoldman) wrote2008-04-15 03:52 pm
Entry tags:
Now for the real post today.
Managed to calm down a major panic attack. God, I hate the end of the year, all that stress just... gah. It really screws with my head. I'm not a weak person, at least I hope I'm not. But I'm better now, hopefully, and getting things done.
But since I was thinking about it, I am going to meta about porn.
Just to get it out of the way, I hate porn.
In order to put a good definition to it, I consider porn to be any form of art that is about fucking. I use that word not to just be edgy or profane, but because it really expresses the type of, well, rutting I'm talking about. Just down and dirty type of stuff. This also includes people being put into a position where they are no longer a person, but an object. When a man or woman is basically serving the purpose of a dildo or blow-up doll, it's porn.
Erotica, on the other hand, tends to be about more. Sometimes not enough more so it slides into the realm of porn, but enough substance to really... do something more than titillate.
I've been thinking about this because I've been trying to figure out why some stories make me ill, while others don't. And surprisingly, it has nothing to do with any kinks or squicks, I've found, but more to do with the difference between erotica and porn. Like, for instance, my hugest biggest squick of all time is incest, even on just an emotional level (like people that are adopted, or people they would affectionately refer to as "daddy" or "sis" or something). I've never been able to get past it, and I don't think that necessarily makes me closed-minded, it's more a reflection on the types of things I value. Really close friends? Not bothered by. But as soon as you cross the line into family, I have issues.
But I've occasionally enjoyed stories that get into that of a more explicit nature. The thing that they had in common was an awareness about what was going on. That really, it wasn't about sex. It was about something else, something human. Even this one extremely short story that did that... I find it impressive when a person can make an interesting point in a few sentences, really. It's been rare and I generally avoid that kind of storytelling, but if confronted with it, will usually try to give it a chance.
Another thing that I find about porn as opposed to erotica... is it's juvenile. The person can be a SUPERB writer as far as description goes and still completely miss the mark if there's an obvious mechanicalness to it. When I get a sense of deja vu, well, that's usually a sign. And not because I spend my days reading porn--more because I have had sex. I get the gist of how it works (even with two guys, but that's more through discussion, so it's a different familiarity). I can usually spot when a person is idealizing sex and when someone is very bitter about it very easily. You cannot remain detached in something like that, writing-wise, unless you're an advertiser and then you have no soul anyway.
It also has nothing to do with description. While I am personally uncomfortable with squishy descriptions, I've always tried to keep an open mind about such things. So I'll be blushing furiously, while reading through lurid description in an attempt to see if there is substance. And it does happen! Clever writers can use the actions as metaphor, and keep the emotional aspects (or if they're making another point, completely remove it, which is also very interesting). When the characters display appropriate sexual awareness is also very interesting (like, I seriously doubt some jailbait is going to know what the hell they're doing. people MY age still don't always know what they're doing!). Hell, even asexuality is interesting, and I like seeing it done for more than just the Old Character That Is Not Pretty. Asexuality is on the spectrum too, and some people really do just want it for reproduction and it's really perfectly fine. And normal. And beautiful.
Point is, there's a difference between things that really embrace sexuality, and something that might as well be on Animal Planet and it lies with intent, most likely.
In art, it's even more pronounced. I've been collecting art of various types since I was about seven, and when I joined the internet I was excited to see that I could find drawings and pictures and save them on my harddrive. I love art. Everything from observatory pictures of the night sky set on long exposure to vintage erotica.
At first glance in art nowadays, people will always point out "omg everyone's so skinny and proportioned like strange!" and they'll be right. But you know the thing that bothers me the most? Dead eyes. Stiff expressions. One of the things I love about Bettie Page is her wicked little smile as opposed to the scared rabbit expression you'd see on say, Girls Gone Wild. Even when she's tied up in bondage gear her face glows and her eyes sparkle. It's no surprise a whole subculture and lots of women have tried to emulate her--Bettie Page is a wonderful example of someone owning her sexuality and having it caught on camera.
More and more I'm seeing art (and fanart) that really... objectifies. And it makes me uncomfortable. Sure, I like humor (hell, a lot of older erotica is great for that, it's HILARIOUS sometimes and they know it) but sometimes I am disturbed. As someone with an academic interest in S&M culture (what? it's really interesting and strangely empowering) the submissive may be called all sorts of things and humiliated, but they still have the power to say no. They're giving permission to have whatever done to them. In art a lot of times it feels less respectful than someone that likes to be tied up and called names--there's no trust, no permission there. I don't know if it makes sense, but that's just something I see.
The whole point of this ramble is I'm sick of porn. I would like a point, I would like a reason, I would like something explored more than just someone's body. If things like fandom are going to get any sort of respect in the real world, we need to do kinks and strangeness a favor and make it interesting. This could just be because I think I'm finally old enough to have a certain amount of control over myself and not just be guided by hormones and a misdirected sense of wanting to be wanted, and I keep seeing missed opportunities. I'd like to see more "first time" stories that don't read like something out of Penthouse. I'd like to see people less well-endowed (unless it's canon, like, say Tifa, but for the most part you have no idea how long any of the guys things are) and less full of prowess. Hell, I'd love to see more about people over the age of thirty, or overweight, or somehow imperfect (this is where I say that I have so much love for the Roslin/Adama fansite I found, because I love them because they are older and imperfect plus cute with each other).
Sure, it's fantasy, but wouldn't you like to stand out a little?
tl;dr version: I hate porn, but like erotica. Bettie Page is hot. Also I am cockphobic.
~Cendri
But since I was thinking about it, I am going to meta about porn.
Just to get it out of the way, I hate porn.
In order to put a good definition to it, I consider porn to be any form of art that is about fucking. I use that word not to just be edgy or profane, but because it really expresses the type of, well, rutting I'm talking about. Just down and dirty type of stuff. This also includes people being put into a position where they are no longer a person, but an object. When a man or woman is basically serving the purpose of a dildo or blow-up doll, it's porn.
Erotica, on the other hand, tends to be about more. Sometimes not enough more so it slides into the realm of porn, but enough substance to really... do something more than titillate.
I've been thinking about this because I've been trying to figure out why some stories make me ill, while others don't. And surprisingly, it has nothing to do with any kinks or squicks, I've found, but more to do with the difference between erotica and porn. Like, for instance, my hugest biggest squick of all time is incest, even on just an emotional level (like people that are adopted, or people they would affectionately refer to as "daddy" or "sis" or something). I've never been able to get past it, and I don't think that necessarily makes me closed-minded, it's more a reflection on the types of things I value. Really close friends? Not bothered by. But as soon as you cross the line into family, I have issues.
But I've occasionally enjoyed stories that get into that of a more explicit nature. The thing that they had in common was an awareness about what was going on. That really, it wasn't about sex. It was about something else, something human. Even this one extremely short story that did that... I find it impressive when a person can make an interesting point in a few sentences, really. It's been rare and I generally avoid that kind of storytelling, but if confronted with it, will usually try to give it a chance.
Another thing that I find about porn as opposed to erotica... is it's juvenile. The person can be a SUPERB writer as far as description goes and still completely miss the mark if there's an obvious mechanicalness to it. When I get a sense of deja vu, well, that's usually a sign. And not because I spend my days reading porn--more because I have had sex. I get the gist of how it works (even with two guys, but that's more through discussion, so it's a different familiarity). I can usually spot when a person is idealizing sex and when someone is very bitter about it very easily. You cannot remain detached in something like that, writing-wise, unless you're an advertiser and then you have no soul anyway.
It also has nothing to do with description. While I am personally uncomfortable with squishy descriptions, I've always tried to keep an open mind about such things. So I'll be blushing furiously, while reading through lurid description in an attempt to see if there is substance. And it does happen! Clever writers can use the actions as metaphor, and keep the emotional aspects (or if they're making another point, completely remove it, which is also very interesting). When the characters display appropriate sexual awareness is also very interesting (like, I seriously doubt some jailbait is going to know what the hell they're doing. people MY age still don't always know what they're doing!). Hell, even asexuality is interesting, and I like seeing it done for more than just the Old Character That Is Not Pretty. Asexuality is on the spectrum too, and some people really do just want it for reproduction and it's really perfectly fine. And normal. And beautiful.
Point is, there's a difference between things that really embrace sexuality, and something that might as well be on Animal Planet and it lies with intent, most likely.
In art, it's even more pronounced. I've been collecting art of various types since I was about seven, and when I joined the internet I was excited to see that I could find drawings and pictures and save them on my harddrive. I love art. Everything from observatory pictures of the night sky set on long exposure to vintage erotica.
At first glance in art nowadays, people will always point out "omg everyone's so skinny and proportioned like strange!" and they'll be right. But you know the thing that bothers me the most? Dead eyes. Stiff expressions. One of the things I love about Bettie Page is her wicked little smile as opposed to the scared rabbit expression you'd see on say, Girls Gone Wild. Even when she's tied up in bondage gear her face glows and her eyes sparkle. It's no surprise a whole subculture and lots of women have tried to emulate her--Bettie Page is a wonderful example of someone owning her sexuality and having it caught on camera.
More and more I'm seeing art (and fanart) that really... objectifies. And it makes me uncomfortable. Sure, I like humor (hell, a lot of older erotica is great for that, it's HILARIOUS sometimes and they know it) but sometimes I am disturbed. As someone with an academic interest in S&M culture (what? it's really interesting and strangely empowering) the submissive may be called all sorts of things and humiliated, but they still have the power to say no. They're giving permission to have whatever done to them. In art a lot of times it feels less respectful than someone that likes to be tied up and called names--there's no trust, no permission there. I don't know if it makes sense, but that's just something I see.
The whole point of this ramble is I'm sick of porn. I would like a point, I would like a reason, I would like something explored more than just someone's body. If things like fandom are going to get any sort of respect in the real world, we need to do kinks and strangeness a favor and make it interesting. This could just be because I think I'm finally old enough to have a certain amount of control over myself and not just be guided by hormones and a misdirected sense of wanting to be wanted, and I keep seeing missed opportunities. I'd like to see more "first time" stories that don't read like something out of Penthouse. I'd like to see people less well-endowed (unless it's canon, like, say Tifa, but for the most part you have no idea how long any of the guys things are) and less full of prowess. Hell, I'd love to see more about people over the age of thirty, or overweight, or somehow imperfect (this is where I say that I have so much love for the Roslin/Adama fansite I found, because I love them because they are older and imperfect plus cute with each other).
Sure, it's fantasy, but wouldn't you like to stand out a little?
tl;dr version: I hate porn, but like erotica. Bettie Page is hot. Also I am cockphobic.
~Cendri
no subject
Because I LIKE my sexuality. I like what you say, erotica- things that mean embracing it and using it, that's a whole different thing for some reason. I like sexuality and I like the idea of owning it and being empowered by it, but I DISLIKE porn because it makes me feel like I'm just there for some dude to fuck as he's thinking about the girls he saw online. And as awful as that sounds, most of that stems from my past relationship and that's basically what he TOLD me he was doing and I feel like such a worthless object. And I guess I get mad because I don't want that to cloud my view on something and I don't want that to continue affecting my mindset, but it does. And I don't mind written porn for the most part, save that if it's just sex for sex I USUALLY won't read it. Not always. I have to be in the mood, and sometimes I am, but usually I want plot, I want development, that sort of thing.
WHY DO I TL;DR IN YOUR COMMENTS?!!
no subject
I pretty much had a sucky relationship with that too, and while I didn't feel objectified, I didn't feel ready for anything that I was doing. Which is bad.
You cannot separate the self from the things you view. No one is objective, it's impossible. You can be tolerant, forgiving, open-minded, but never fully objective. Opinion is always colored with experience and always should be.
But I also have a problem that because people abuse sexuality to sell something that suddenly ANYTHING NEKKED IS BAD. Because that's missing the issue and being silly. I think that a lot of people are over-exposed to sex, but I think that it's more through marketing, and less through actual sexuality which is complicated and imperfect.
So yeah, I tl;dr back.
~Cendri
no subject
Personally, I'm still trying to figure out what my whole opinion on the porn vs. no-porn debate (if you're in a fandom long enough, you have to think about it eventually)... and so for once I won't comment. XD
*gasp*, I know. :p
(Take care, *hugs*)
-T. pirate
no subject
no subject
But there are very few authors I can do this with - very few who attract me "despite" the porn. I think this may be a function of the relatively small number of good writers period, but yeah.
My point ran away and got lost. *chases it idly*
no subject
Hell, Inara from Firefly was basically the most perfect character I've seen in regards to being in touch with all aspects of the erotic and not just written as some object fantasy. I was pretty impressed with the writing done for her. Then again, I'm one of those people that doesn't have a problem with prostitution as long as those being prostituted are properly cared for and protected. Which doesn't happen often considering it's illegal in most places and thus off the radar.
But I digress.
~Cendri
no subject
Amen, hallelujah, preach it sister, and WORD.
Despite being the prudiest prude to ever prudent, there is something to be said about shall we say, intimate moments.
As you mentioned, if it's done properly, a really good author can pull off almost anything. I've seen it done, and I am an EASILY squickable person, particularly concerning the above.
HOWEVER.
There is stuff on my harddrive, yea, even on my FF.net and FicWad accounts that I am simultaneously proud of and weirded out by. Because I can't quite believe I wrote that. Case in point would be "Shining Armor". ( /shameless plug )
Umm...long/short?
I agree.
Entirely.
no subject
But it's a good thing, don't be weirded out. For some reason, you wrote it and it needed to happen. That's usually the case. I mean, I'm a bit of a prude, but I've at least gotten to the point it's not because I feel the need to suppress certain things, but simply I don't feel I'm up for the responsibility or that I will particularly enjoy it. Hopefully that doesn't sound TMI. XD
~Cendri
no subject
Mm. I have quite a few things that more or less just fell out of my head and I'm not sure how they got there in the first place. They just needed to be put somewhere else sooo...I wrote/drew them. :\
But it's a good thing, don't be weirded out.
But I AM. Because I look at whatever I put down, blink and go "where the SNOT did THAT come from?????"
For some reason, you wrote it and it needed to happen. That's usually the case. I mean, I'm a bit of a prude, but I've at least gotten to the point it's not because I feel the need to suppress certain things, but simply I don't feel I'm up for the responsibility or that I will particularly enjoy it. Hopefully that doesn't sound TMI. XD
XD No, I know how that goes. I feel much the same way.
I am usually squicked over the execution/presentation than the actual mechanics thereof (oh euphemisms...). There just...a heck of a lot more involved in that, at least to me, that I sure as heck am not ready for, personally. I may never be. I dunno. ::shrug:: Tho I will admit to my share of morbid curiosity. ;P I guess that's why odd things end up on paper. I had a point. ::looks around for it:: Oh well.
Oh, um one other thing, I ended up re-posting Shining Armor (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3770996/1/Shining_Armor) because it actually got flamed. Some stupid kid who wrote "Arthur" (yes, the Ardvark of PBS fame) slash decided I was, in her words, "raping canon".
Dude.
It's ff.net.
No. Moral. High-ground.
Guess it hit her in the funnybone or something. It's only got one comment right now and it's a vapid one from somebody who says the same thing on EVERY fic I post (bless her loyal little fankid heart). I was...I dunno. Hoping for too much I guess. It's a fine line, and I'm not sure I got across what I wanted... That and there's probably too much back-story needed to "get" this one. I dunno. :\
no subject
The tooth fairy.
>.>
Actually, some part of you. I believe a lot in the unconscious, though.
~Cendri
no subject
I like a lot of what you're saying about porn, here, but your lines about Bettie Page are quoteable. Emotion and characterization are especially important to erotic material
or at least they should be....the deer-in-headlights-look is unattractive no matter how much clothing the young lady/man is wearing. Smile, kids - it won't kill you. ^^
no subject
Well, emotion and characterization are what makes it erotic! Otherwise it's just chemical reactions and natural selection.
Smile or smirk or SOMETHING, yeah. XD
~Cendri
no subject