Pontifications!
Sep. 12th, 2008 01:45 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
crankyoldmanAlright, so something I keep seeing places has been bothering me. And it's the idea that writing yaoi or other guy/guy things is somehow, well, feminist.
It bothers me, because it strikes me as so untrue that it's ridiculous.
Yuri isn't particularly feminist either. In fact, really, what strikes me as the most feminist writing involves female characters without any, or at least downplayed, romantic entanglements at all, where their merits are as a person, not a role. But getting back to logic of yaoi = feminist... it's like saying that you're solving the problem by just ignoring it completely.
I'm not even saying that yaoi is inherently bad or sexist or whatever. On the contrary, I think when done well it allows for things we don't get to see in mainstream media without being made fun of for the most part--guys being affectionate, etc. I'm of the belief that feminine and masculine are actual spectrums, but they are independent of gender--sensitive and support role men are just as feminist to me as the Warrior Woman. At its worst, though, it's like a really bad parody of heterosexual relations. But that's my opinion.
I also think it takes far more of a mind stretch to write a het story in which normal conventions aren't observed. Hell, even I can't manage that most of the time. How Things Are is so ingrained into my psyche that even me, someone that very well knows the dark side of power imbalance in a relationship can't always get away from it. And sometimes it turns out well, sometimes it doesn't. Just because it can be bad doesn't mean it always will go that way, I suppose.
But please, for the love of god, if you like yaoi, like it. Don't treat it like it's somehow less prone to cliche, power imbalance, and overall squickiness just because you took the woman out of the equation. As long as there are ukes that cry crystal tears and raping semes out there, it's just as bad as everything else.
And while you're at it, please to be writing some pushy ukes so I can <3 all over it. Thanks.
Pontification 2: Tolerance
Because things are political right now, I've been seeing some rather horrendous things from people--of any political persuasion. So I sat down and thought about what "tolerance" actually means to me, as a lot of the mudslinging seems to be a direct result of intolerance.
I am a gay white upper middle class woman in a technical field in her mid-twenties. I am what give voting profilers seizures because I don't fit in any of the boxes particularly well. Because of my sort of odd position, I've always been a little on the Centrist side--people should not be looking at what makes them different, they should be looking at what makes them the same.
A while ago I had a conversation with an old friend of mine; she's a very intelligent young mother, who got married right out of high school, and also happens to be a preacher's daughter. She's also managed this successfully, without falling into a lot of the pitfalls that people that get married young fall into, because she has always had an unusual amount of maturity (and her husband is not a neanderthal). You would think we don't get along at all from the surface, but really, we have much more in common than different. We get into the "weirdnesses" out there, and part of the reason we became friends originally was because we didn't fit our prospective boxes. I'd like to think the majority of my Good Friends have similar deals. But this conversation was just about our lives, and she's known for a while that I started dating a woman.
She was a bit uncomfortable at first, not because she believes it's wrong (which she doesn't) but because of how other gay people had always acted towards her, since she is a Christian.
And it made me think. Sure, it sucks not being the norm, but you have to wonder that the intolerance of the majority might spring a little from the intolerance of the minority? I mean, hear me out. There are people that no matter what will be assholes. No one wants to admit they might be wrong about something. But I've always believed you have to give an inch to get an inch, and that is how you tolerate each other.
Tolerance isn't about being the same, it's about being different and accepting those differences, while trying to find a common ground.
Human nature makes it so it's very hard to sympathize with anything that doesn't have a LITTLE bit in common with yourself. Maybe that's evolutionary, maybe that's societal, who knows. But if all you see is what you are NOT in something else, you're likely to find it easy to hate. If something is OTHER from yourself, it's easy to be intolerant of it.
Now how did my friend become comfortable with me?
Well, first off, other than being a bit happier and the color of my jokes changing a bit, I hadn't really changed. At least not negatively. We were still able to talk about the same things we always talk about, and debate and all that. I wasn't a one woman gay parade, which is what she had expected (hey, our hometown... yeah. they can be silly) due to her other experiences. I wasn't hiding anything, and was very frank when asked about certain things, but I've always been frank. In fact, I may have helped change her perception, because I really don't buy into a lot of what I am expected to be like. You are not the clothes you wear or the club buttons on your vest, basically, even if they influence who you are.
There is, to some extent, a little pressure in the gay community (not so much your average gay person, but sort of the "community mindset") to get involved a certain way (depending on your region). But that happens with any group or subculture or what have you. Still doesn't mean I'm going to wear flannel and buzz off all my hair (I keep it short mostly because I like the way I look that way, not because I need a dyke cut) and wear rainbows everyday. Nor am I going to expect my girlfriend to do that. Doesn't mean the types that do that are wrong or weird--if it works for them, it works for them. And sometimes our only common ground is we're gay. But that's ok. There's at least a common ground. If someone says I don't "act gay enough" then I realize they're being dumb and will probably avoid them.
I've realized that the values that have stayed with me were a lot of the ones I grew up with, but minus a lot of BS. Because BS happens. I was raised Catholic--but more importantly, I was raised to think for myself. And I've realized I can identify as spritual with a bit of a Catholic bent and still be gay and still be an engineer and still find certain things uncomfortable and others to be ok. These are not mutually exclusive things. Because I control my value set, and interact with whichever group in the capacity I believe in it.
It's basically led to this: it takes a lot to make me dislike a person. Which has led to me having friends from such a broad demographic range and range of subcultures... and I love that. Because I learn something from each. Fundamentalist Christianity, at its core, is not the crazyness, it's the basics. And you know, some of those basics I believe in. The ritualism of Catholicism is still comforting to me--I can't think of how many times having a rosary around has calmed me down from panic attacks. I've always practiced some form of divination, and always felt like there was simply more than just what we can see with our own eyes, so I can see where Pagans come from.
I mean, religion is just one example. But nothing makes me more sad when I see someone in a fringe or less norm group sound just as intolerant as the people that were mean to them. Because by doing that, you're vindicating the people that are being intolerant to you and it's this huge cycle of meanness. This is why I can't watch anything political on TV right now--I think both Democrats and Republicans are acting like children, especially where the media can watch them. This is why I don't truly identify with either--I like parts of each. Neither way of thinking is evil, it's just different. So anytime I see a discussion that is skewed one way or another, I just stay out of it. Because I don't believe in either and it would just cause headaches.
Besides, it really doesn't matter who is president so much as who is making your laws these days. Those are the people you REALLY have to watch, and I'm always disheartened to see people that think that a president makes laws--our gov't doesn't work like that. They can only influence. And it's only a big influence if you let it be a big influence. But that's another discussion.
And there are some things that should NOT be tolerated. But those aren't as much beliefs as actions--I do not tolerate subjugation, of ANY form, for ANY gender or ANY person. It makes me uncomfortable. Sometimes I say something about it, and sometimes I just get away from it. Either way, I'm extremely intolerant of it. But subjugation is really specific--some people are submissive by choice. And that's ok with me, as long as it's a choice. Because that's a belief. As long as the actions reflect it, way to go. Be intolerant of negative actions. But don't assume because someone associates with a certain group that they are this caricature of a person.
I guess it all boils down to assumptions--people are innocent until proven otherwise, in my book. People are generally cool until they don't act cool, basically. This has taken a while to get to that level of general trust--I don't necessarily TRUST people, but I trust their intentions until they prove me wrong. Defensive, but not offensive.
My point, really, is that meanness stops with you. Don't pass on that rumor or that meme or whatever. It's great to disagree, but it's not so great to demonize.
Now to finish homework.
~Cendri
It bothers me, because it strikes me as so untrue that it's ridiculous.
Yuri isn't particularly feminist either. In fact, really, what strikes me as the most feminist writing involves female characters without any, or at least downplayed, romantic entanglements at all, where their merits are as a person, not a role. But getting back to logic of yaoi = feminist... it's like saying that you're solving the problem by just ignoring it completely.
I'm not even saying that yaoi is inherently bad or sexist or whatever. On the contrary, I think when done well it allows for things we don't get to see in mainstream media without being made fun of for the most part--guys being affectionate, etc. I'm of the belief that feminine and masculine are actual spectrums, but they are independent of gender--sensitive and support role men are just as feminist to me as the Warrior Woman. At its worst, though, it's like a really bad parody of heterosexual relations. But that's my opinion.
I also think it takes far more of a mind stretch to write a het story in which normal conventions aren't observed. Hell, even I can't manage that most of the time. How Things Are is so ingrained into my psyche that even me, someone that very well knows the dark side of power imbalance in a relationship can't always get away from it. And sometimes it turns out well, sometimes it doesn't. Just because it can be bad doesn't mean it always will go that way, I suppose.
But please, for the love of god, if you like yaoi, like it. Don't treat it like it's somehow less prone to cliche, power imbalance, and overall squickiness just because you took the woman out of the equation. As long as there are ukes that cry crystal tears and raping semes out there, it's just as bad as everything else.
And while you're at it, please to be writing some pushy ukes so I can <3 all over it. Thanks.
Pontification 2: Tolerance
Because things are political right now, I've been seeing some rather horrendous things from people--of any political persuasion. So I sat down and thought about what "tolerance" actually means to me, as a lot of the mudslinging seems to be a direct result of intolerance.
I am a gay white upper middle class woman in a technical field in her mid-twenties. I am what give voting profilers seizures because I don't fit in any of the boxes particularly well. Because of my sort of odd position, I've always been a little on the Centrist side--people should not be looking at what makes them different, they should be looking at what makes them the same.
A while ago I had a conversation with an old friend of mine; she's a very intelligent young mother, who got married right out of high school, and also happens to be a preacher's daughter. She's also managed this successfully, without falling into a lot of the pitfalls that people that get married young fall into, because she has always had an unusual amount of maturity (and her husband is not a neanderthal). You would think we don't get along at all from the surface, but really, we have much more in common than different. We get into the "weirdnesses" out there, and part of the reason we became friends originally was because we didn't fit our prospective boxes. I'd like to think the majority of my Good Friends have similar deals. But this conversation was just about our lives, and she's known for a while that I started dating a woman.
She was a bit uncomfortable at first, not because she believes it's wrong (which she doesn't) but because of how other gay people had always acted towards her, since she is a Christian.
And it made me think. Sure, it sucks not being the norm, but you have to wonder that the intolerance of the majority might spring a little from the intolerance of the minority? I mean, hear me out. There are people that no matter what will be assholes. No one wants to admit they might be wrong about something. But I've always believed you have to give an inch to get an inch, and that is how you tolerate each other.
Tolerance isn't about being the same, it's about being different and accepting those differences, while trying to find a common ground.
Human nature makes it so it's very hard to sympathize with anything that doesn't have a LITTLE bit in common with yourself. Maybe that's evolutionary, maybe that's societal, who knows. But if all you see is what you are NOT in something else, you're likely to find it easy to hate. If something is OTHER from yourself, it's easy to be intolerant of it.
Now how did my friend become comfortable with me?
Well, first off, other than being a bit happier and the color of my jokes changing a bit, I hadn't really changed. At least not negatively. We were still able to talk about the same things we always talk about, and debate and all that. I wasn't a one woman gay parade, which is what she had expected (hey, our hometown... yeah. they can be silly) due to her other experiences. I wasn't hiding anything, and was very frank when asked about certain things, but I've always been frank. In fact, I may have helped change her perception, because I really don't buy into a lot of what I am expected to be like. You are not the clothes you wear or the club buttons on your vest, basically, even if they influence who you are.
There is, to some extent, a little pressure in the gay community (not so much your average gay person, but sort of the "community mindset") to get involved a certain way (depending on your region). But that happens with any group or subculture or what have you. Still doesn't mean I'm going to wear flannel and buzz off all my hair (I keep it short mostly because I like the way I look that way, not because I need a dyke cut) and wear rainbows everyday. Nor am I going to expect my girlfriend to do that. Doesn't mean the types that do that are wrong or weird--if it works for them, it works for them. And sometimes our only common ground is we're gay. But that's ok. There's at least a common ground. If someone says I don't "act gay enough" then I realize they're being dumb and will probably avoid them.
I've realized that the values that have stayed with me were a lot of the ones I grew up with, but minus a lot of BS. Because BS happens. I was raised Catholic--but more importantly, I was raised to think for myself. And I've realized I can identify as spritual with a bit of a Catholic bent and still be gay and still be an engineer and still find certain things uncomfortable and others to be ok. These are not mutually exclusive things. Because I control my value set, and interact with whichever group in the capacity I believe in it.
It's basically led to this: it takes a lot to make me dislike a person. Which has led to me having friends from such a broad demographic range and range of subcultures... and I love that. Because I learn something from each. Fundamentalist Christianity, at its core, is not the crazyness, it's the basics. And you know, some of those basics I believe in. The ritualism of Catholicism is still comforting to me--I can't think of how many times having a rosary around has calmed me down from panic attacks. I've always practiced some form of divination, and always felt like there was simply more than just what we can see with our own eyes, so I can see where Pagans come from.
I mean, religion is just one example. But nothing makes me more sad when I see someone in a fringe or less norm group sound just as intolerant as the people that were mean to them. Because by doing that, you're vindicating the people that are being intolerant to you and it's this huge cycle of meanness. This is why I can't watch anything political on TV right now--I think both Democrats and Republicans are acting like children, especially where the media can watch them. This is why I don't truly identify with either--I like parts of each. Neither way of thinking is evil, it's just different. So anytime I see a discussion that is skewed one way or another, I just stay out of it. Because I don't believe in either and it would just cause headaches.
Besides, it really doesn't matter who is president so much as who is making your laws these days. Those are the people you REALLY have to watch, and I'm always disheartened to see people that think that a president makes laws--our gov't doesn't work like that. They can only influence. And it's only a big influence if you let it be a big influence. But that's another discussion.
And there are some things that should NOT be tolerated. But those aren't as much beliefs as actions--I do not tolerate subjugation, of ANY form, for ANY gender or ANY person. It makes me uncomfortable. Sometimes I say something about it, and sometimes I just get away from it. Either way, I'm extremely intolerant of it. But subjugation is really specific--some people are submissive by choice. And that's ok with me, as long as it's a choice. Because that's a belief. As long as the actions reflect it, way to go. Be intolerant of negative actions. But don't assume because someone associates with a certain group that they are this caricature of a person.
I guess it all boils down to assumptions--people are innocent until proven otherwise, in my book. People are generally cool until they don't act cool, basically. This has taken a while to get to that level of general trust--I don't necessarily TRUST people, but I trust their intentions until they prove me wrong. Defensive, but not offensive.
My point, really, is that meanness stops with you. Don't pass on that rumor or that meme or whatever. It's great to disagree, but it's not so great to demonize.
Now to finish homework.
~Cendri
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-12 06:39 pm (UTC)As to the second part, all I can say is word.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-12 06:53 pm (UTC)I wish I had some other sort of witty response so I could be like YES! LET US START AN INFORMED DIALOGUE ABOUT STEREOTYPES!!!1111 But you basically said it all so I have nothing left to say XDDDDDD
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-12 07:02 pm (UTC)Also, to babble.
I'll bet you have some interesting stereotype experiences.
~Cendri
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-12 08:22 pm (UTC)As for those old Chinese stereotypes, I'm not good at math, I still am not a doctor or engineer and I don't have an MBA or a Ph.D., but that's ok. XD
Lately, the predominant thing I get is "You're a librarian? But you don't look like one!" I'm not sure how librarians are supposed to look, but obviously I don't look it.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-12 08:57 pm (UTC)I guess it's because I look really young? And tend to dress sort of goth-y? And clearly all librarians are old ladies? I dunno.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-12 09:15 pm (UTC)I still get like, sophomores in my engineering building asking me if I'm lost. Best time with that was when one of my profs then walked up and told them "I don't think you'll last very long in Aero" to said kid. XD
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-12 09:25 pm (UTC)I got a lot when I told my friends I was a lesbian, that "oh, you always did dress a little androgynously". Which has really NOTHING to do with it. I've always dressed that way and I was pretty sure I was hetero for a while. Logic fail!
I'm actually mildly fascinated with Asian-American experiences (because that's a lot of different countries, it's like how my family is Polish-Slavic-Russian, VASTLY different things) because I know in my high school there were 2.5 asian kids, and they all helped run the Chinese restaurant in the area. And I get to college and suddenly I'm assaulted with all these interesting cultures and it's like, "I WANT TO HANG WITH YOU ALL".
It was kind of amusing being That White Kid hanging with my Indian friends or my Korean ones. It kind of brought me a little closer to what it had to have been like for people in my family a couple generations back--reconciling the old culture and the current one.
Alright, so I probably should have minored in sociology as well as history, because I like learning things.
Not to sound clinical or weird or anything. I like hearing about how people got over Not Fitting The Box, I suppose. I had to join marching band and start wearing ties. Don't ask me how that helped, it just did.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-12 08:38 pm (UTC)I’m not sure if I agree with the second point or not purely because of a difference in the definition of tolerance. Even if you consider an action negative doesn’t mean it is to the person doing the act which is to me where you have to come in with tolerance.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-12 09:06 pm (UTC)But in most cases I find it's better to be the type of person that someone else that believes wildly different can look at and say, "hey, I guess they're not all freaks, I wonder what else we might have in common".
It's tricky. But I'd rather tend away from condemnation. Not sure if I always succeed! This was also mostly a braindump. But yeah.
~Cendri
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-12 08:54 pm (UTC)If anything, slash teaches us that women's porn can be just as retarded as the guys' porn. That's equality, right?
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-12 09:12 pm (UTC)But as per the IDEA, I pretty much consider porn as written by women for women as something that could be feminist--the fact that it tends towards "gay" male sex is just a manifestation. If someone were to say, "I'm feminist and sex-positive, and it tends to manifest as yaoi" more or less, then that's a good attitude. Unless I find out they're using it to write incredibly horrible stuff, and then it's a "you're doing it wrong" moment. Like I have a friend that's feminist and Catholic, but she totally does not to the religion equivalent of rapefic in her practice. If that makes any sense.
And you're right, it proves that sex is silly, especially when people try to write it out. XD
I guess I just tend to step back sometimes and look at how the idea and practice play out. Usually this coincides with three hours of sleep and seven hours spent doing Lagrangian derivations.
~Cendri
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-13 03:58 am (UTC)Thank you. Thank you. *grumble grumble*
And as I am frequently teased for having more shoes--and a constant yearning for more--than any of my straight female friends, I totally understand the whole "not fitting into the dyke box" thing. XD
I doubt I have much of the whole tolerance thing figured out yet--I have so many issues with the particular church I go to, and the ones I've been to in the past, which makes relating to really religious people really hard sometimes--but I think you've got some really good points.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-13 09:48 am (UTC)As for your latter rant, right on, etc. Ask me sometime about why I didn't hang out with Rainbow Brite and the Color Kids in college, if I've never told you that store.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-13 06:13 pm (UTC)~Cendri
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-13 06:39 pm (UTC)